VW Emission tests

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RoadKnight
Posts: 26
Joined: Mon Aug 17, 2015 12:13 am

Post by RoadKnight »

Some excellent posts on this thread which I enjoyed reading. I think another aspect to this that has not really come out so much in the media, is the role governments have played in this. From my reading, it was the French who were mainly behind the big push into diesel engines, mainly because of their very low CO2 emissions. However the French in their rush to promote diesel cars, overlooked the fact that diesel engines actually produce a lot of other very nasty pollutants (dioxides, particulates, etc) some of which are grade 1 carcinogens.

Realising this error, the French then dramatically tightened the diesel pollution standard for cars; a standard that has been very difficult (ie. expensive) to meet. The temptation was huge to take some short cuts and VW seems to have been the main transgressor here - so far!

Apparently, car companies outside Europe could not understand the enthusiasm for diesel cars, seeing the technology as basically a dead-end. Instead they pursued other technologies, such as hybrid, electric, hydrogen, etc.

The push to diesel was also being promoted by the oil multis who wanted to prop-up their flagging heating oil sales.

Is this the death of the diesel car? Who knows, but I suspect we will see diesel car sales steadily (rapidly?) decline as their 'environmentally clean' image is blown out of the water.

It is fairly safe to assume that VW was not alone in doing what they did. I am surprised that no other car company has yet made any statements in the media - and also that there have been no leaks. However is VW going to take the rap on this alone or might they be tempted to start pointing fingers at what their competitors have been up to? Time will tell.

Deleted User 1571

Post by Deleted User 1571 »

RoadKnight wrote:Some excellent posts on this thread which I enjoyed reading. I think another aspect to this that has not really come out so much in the media, is the role governments have played in this. From my reading, it was the French who were mainly behind the big push into diesel engines, mainly because of their very low CO2 emissions. However the French in their rush to promote diesel cars, overlooked the fact that diesel engines actually produce a lot of other very nasty pollutants (dioxides, particulates, etc) some of which are grade 1 carcinogens.

Realising this error, the French then dramatically tightened the diesel pollution standard for cars; a standard that has been very difficult (ie. expensive) to meet. The temptation was huge to take some short cuts and VW seems to have been the main transgressor here - so far!

Apparently, car companies outside Europe could not understand the enthusiasm for diesel cars, seeing the technology as basically a dead-end. Instead they pursued other technologies, such as hybrid, electric, hydrogen, etc.

The push to diesel was also being promoted by the oil multis who wanted to prop-up their flagging heating oil sales.

Is this the death of the diesel car? Who knows, but I suspect we will see diesel car sales steadily (rapidly?) decline as their 'environmentally clean' image is blown out of the water.

It is fairly safe to assume that VW was not alone in doing what they did. I am surprised that no other car company has yet made any statements in the media - and also that there have been no leaks. However is VW going to take the rap on this alone or might they be tempted to start pointing fingers at what their competitors have been up to? Time will tell.
Diesel is and will continue to be the fuel of choice for the haulage of goods, therefore its price is very important to the man on the street's cost of living and living standard. That being the case it is up to every individual customer of a car to choose whether the fuel consumption benefit of a diesel car is worth it compared to the higher initial purchase price, higher fuel price on average and the potential issues and high repair cost potential during the economic life of the vehicle. Regardless of French wishes one way or another, which for the most part is irrelevant, far too many private use customers that don't do massive mileage, do mainly drive in town, and don't have their own fuel storage for convenience, have been choosing diesel engines for the last few years in my opinion. But the supply is demand driven. Driven mostly by better diesel engines that are economical, torquey and refined in use while the cost of fuel has been very very high in Europe. Elsewhere, where fuel and energy is far less heavily taxed and therefore takes a significantly lower proportion of disposable income, petrol is the overwhelming fuel of choice. It is just so much more economically viable to run small diesel cars in high-fuel-cost economies [geographical areas] than when the cost difference of the engine will never be recouped from fuel cost saving.

As to the fuel companies. No they certainly do not and never did want so many diesel cars. Three reasons. First is that the cars are more economical and therefore use less fuel. Secondly commercial fuel stations have had to invest heavily in more diesel pumps and massively more storage with increased potential for unloading mix-ups [let alone the everyday issue of customers misfuelling]. Thirdly, there is just not the refining capacity for this high a proportion of diesel fuel compared to petrol in Europe, which means that diesel is having to be imported ready-refined and that existing refineries that were built mainly for petrol production are having to be closed down. There just isn't the demand for petrol in the quantities required to also supply Gas Oil/DERV and paraffin from existing old refineries and it is uneconomic to invest to change the cracking ratios. Hence the traditional oil companies offloading their refineries or shutting them down, as more and more are doing [simply put, due to excess petrol refining capacity]
DaveBerlin
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Post by DaveBerlin »

Now there are comments on CO2 Emissions beginning to raise the dust - Dave :o

Volkswagen's voluntary admission of "irregularities" concerning the carbon dioxide emissions of its cars should send a shudder through the entire auto industry. Although VW's previous problem with nitrogen oxide emissions -- a software "defeat device" specifically meant to cheat tests -- appears to have been specific to the company, other automakers almost certainly share the flaw of building cars with CO2 emissions that look better on tests than in real life.
The Washington-based International Council on Clean Transportation -- the organization that led the U.S. Environmental Protection Agency to expose VW's diesel emissions fraud -- showed in a report this year that real-life CO2 emission levels from cars in Europe were increasingly exceeding test results. In 2014, it said, emissions from European passenger cars exceeded certification values by 40 percent, four times the gap in 2001, when standards were more lax. No real-world CO2 reduction has been achieved since 2010.
To get these results, ICCT collected anonymized data on real-life fuel consumption from sources such as the German web service Spritmonitor.de, which lets users track their gas mileage, as well as fleet management companies and car magazines that run real-life tests. Here is the divergence from CO2 certification values for various manufacturers, according to Spritmonitor.de data:

http://www.bloombergview.com/articles/2 ... -carmakers
11.19/1.3L/160PS/Tekna+/DCT/PrOPILOT/KAD Gun Metallic/Trunk Lower Finisher/Rear Glass Finisher/Ambient Lighting-LED’s Innen/Entry Guards Illuminated/Sport Pedals/Front Styling Plate/LED No.Plate/Chrome Door Handles/Rear Valance/Giacuzzo Alloys + Falken
gvmdaddy
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Joined: Thu Jun 19, 2014 11:28 pm

Post by gvmdaddy »

Its now become apparent that Nissan may well have been involved in emmisions iregularities after all.
If you buy a QQ with 19' wheels then its CO2 output is 4 points higher than if it has the smaller alloys.
This means that a new QQ 1.5dci with 19' wheels is free from VED (UK), but is chargeable from the second year.
QQ013
Posts: 201
Joined: Tue Feb 03, 2015 6:15 pm

Post by QQ013 »

quacker, your third argument about special refinerys is not correct.
See https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oil_refinery for the real info there.
That being the case it is up to every individual customer of a car to choose whether the fuel consumption benefit of a diesel car is worth it compared to the higher initial purchase price, higher fuel price on average
Diesel prices are a lot cheaper then gasoline in the rest of EU. (about 30% cheaper on average) UK has higher taxes on Diesel fuel.
QQ 1.6Dig-T Tekna
Deleted User 1571

Post by Deleted User 1571 »

QQ013 wrote:quacker, your third argument about special refinerys is not correct.
See https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oil_refinery for the real info there.
That being the case it is up to every individual customer of a car to choose whether the fuel consumption benefit of a diesel car is worth it compared to the higher initial purchase price, higher fuel price on average
Diesel prices are a lot cheaper then gasoline in the rest of EU. (about 30% cheaper on average) UK has higher taxes on Diesel fuel.
Not sure what you mean by 'special refineries' or what in that article proves me not to be correct.

Diesel is indeed generally cheaper than petrol by an average of about 10% to 20% over most of mainland Europe, but the UK has the highest price for both in Europe and diesel by a considerable margin. Yes, tax has a major effect.
http://www.europenroad.com/fuel/


More and more DERV is imported ready-refined into the UK for the reasons I've already mentioned, which is a completely separate issue to tax and the consumer price. They just can't take enough diesel and kerosene fraction out of UK refineries to meet the need for aviation, heating, haulage, agriculture and cars from UK refineries. There is no such constraint on petrol refining.
Deleted User 1571

Post by Deleted User 1571 »

gvmdaddy wrote:Its now become apparent that Nissan may well have been involved in emmisions iregularities after all.
If you buy a QQ with 19' wheels then its CO2 output is 4 points higher than if it has the smaller alloys.
This means that a new QQ 1.5dci with 19' wheels is free from VED (UK), but is chargeable from the second year.
I don't follow. Your assumption is very far from being 'apparent' in my opinion and it is unwarranted until proved otherwise.

There's four g/km difference with the wider tyres which increases fuel consumption very very slightly. It may be that EuroV1 engines are that much less economical across the board but that on the narrower tyres they still test under 100g/km. The Euro5 models with the narrower tyres might well have tested well under the claimed 99g/km previously but was not tested individually because the one with wider tyres and higher emissions just came in under the 99g/km that qualified them for the lowest road tax anyway.
QQ013
Posts: 201
Joined: Tue Feb 03, 2015 6:15 pm

Post by QQ013 »

There were recent tests (autoweek.nl) and the New Nissan Xtrail topped the rank for most polluting diesel engine. About 15 times the norm for Euro6 diesel.
QQ 1.6Dig-T Tekna
Deleted User 1571

Post by Deleted User 1571 »

No doubt they will be officially retested and the truth will out. Until then only VW have been officially caught cheating the test.
QQ013
Posts: 201
Joined: Tue Feb 03, 2015 6:15 pm

Post by QQ013 »

True, but do not develop the ¨Apple users¨ attitude who like to bury their heads in the sand at problems and keep denying until the moment Apple solves the problems.
The Nissan QQ is a great car but Nissan has it flaws.
QQ 1.6Dig-T Tekna
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