VW Emission tests

[PeterL]

Welcome back and so much has happened! Hard to resist the feeling that those of us with the Nissan Diesel engines are in for an interesting ride along with the 11M VW's over the next few months. Perhaps I should have bought the battery powered thing in the end?

[Deleted User 759]

I don't think there will be an issue for Nissan. I think its more a case of the stricter US emissions laws have resulted in the issue. Over here its slightly easier to pass.

However it does not boad well in general. If there is an even slight wiff of tweaking for tests then this could be the nail in the coffin for diesel as a fuel for regular drivers. There is the whole 'being sold a lie'. Some people will have gone out of their way to pick a car that not only suits them, but suits them in terms of their own environmental 'requirements' as it were.

VW claim 11 million cars are affected by this... I know VW are a big company and there is a small number in the US, but if people start claiming full refunds, which they will be entirled to under the sales of goods act for miss representation, as well as fines from countries... I wonder if we could see the VAG group sink?

I bet they wont be sinking their money into F1 like recent claims have suggested.

[PeterL]

It's certainly a bag-of-worms and we are all too well aware of the simple fact that none achieve the claimed MPG figures in the real world. If I'm honest it's never worried me any, you sort of get used to it and perhaps take it with a pinch of salt feeling secure that all manufacturers do the same, so at worst the figures are relative. However given a chance to bring a mighty company to its knees for selling me a car that doesn't meet my new found promises is a totally different matter. The banks might have suffered with PPI claims I do wonder just where this will end. Not in Formula 1 obviously and I note that Renault are just about out of it too?

[Deleted User 759]

VAG group are in talks with Red Bull in a buy out.... or they were! If it happens though, an F1 team with a VAG name (lets says Audi) with a ferarri engine.... lol Renault are iffing and arring about buying 51% of the lotus team to create a works team. If that does not happen, then I understand once the supply contracts are up, they will be out. I digress.

It seems the EPA are expanding their research from VAG's to others marks, and not only that, but from derv to petrol.... I must admit, some of the level that manuf's are quoting seen a little iffy at best. Chances are engine manf's simply cant build have affordable, performance and eco credentials engines. Pick only 2

[DaveBerlin]

We are out here in the “Land of the Free” and believe you me VW are in the News. Hopefully the problems that have arisen in the US will not affect Nissan Diesel powered cars such as the QQ, because these negatives will or could affect also Nissan Sales and Trade In values for members. Switzerland have already put a stop on VW Diesel Sales - Dave

VW’s admission that it rigged diesel engines to fool regulators is set to accelerate the technology’s decline in Europe, hitting not just the German carmaker but also competitors PSA Peugeot Citroen and Renault SA. The French manufacturers rely on diesel-powered vehicles for at least 60 percent of their European sales. With the fuel systems already under attack in the region because of pollution concerns, VW’s so-called dieselgate scandal could cause the technology’s market share to drop to as little as 35 percent of cars sold in Europe in 2022 from 53 percent in 2014. A backlash against diesel by consumers and more stringent scrutiny from regulators would make it even tougher for carmakers in Europe to meet tightening rules on fuel consumption and carbon-dioxide emissions. That might mean an accelerated shift to hybrids, which are costly to produce because they contain combustion engines as well as electric motors.

http://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/ ... iesel-dupe

[fat controller]

For a long time now, owners on forums like this one have been complaining just how far off the mark the real world fuel consumption figures are against the quoted manufacturer ones (as per the tests in the relevant countries) -- now, I know that it is less than scientific, but surely using more fuel means higher emissions? I understand that the concerns are mostly to do with NOx levels, but I think that the theory has to hold true - more fuel = more emissions?

I have just come from an Audi A4 2.0 TDI, ('09), with a VW Passat 2.0TDI ('56) before that, and neither of them were particularly stunning in the fuel consumption stakes; don't get me wrong, they weren't bad, but they weren't great either. The Passat had an engine that was clearly rushed (BKP - Pumpe-deus), and came with numerous pitfalls (failing oil pump drives, injector failures, turbo problems, manifold issues.....) - - in short, they took a bullet-proof 1.9 engine, upped the capacity, upped the power output and the torque whilst trying to make it lighter, cheaper and more efficient/less polluting, and effectively overstretched the engine's original design.

The A4 had a far superior lump (CAGA - common rail), and seemed generally economical; I used to get around 35-mpg around town and 45-50mpg on a run. The QQ however, is giving me roughly 45-50mpg around town, and 60+mpg on a run; same places, same driver, same or slightly worse traffic.

I think that alone shows why the QQ is a zero road tax, and therefore low consumption machine, and therefore not requiring any shenanigans to get through any emissions tests.......

[jackdaww]

this vw scandal is a side show.

the vehicle recalls wont make the emissions any better by one iota .

the REAL scandal is that diesel is a very dirty technology full stop.

not only the particulates, which is bad enough , we now discover that the nitrogen oxiide NOX emmissions are directly causing lung diseases and deaths .

how often do you see a haze of black smoke from a diesel ? about one every five minutes for me .

how often do you see a haze of white or grey smoke from a petrol ? hardly ever.

what the agenda was for pushing diesel i dont know, not the global warming issue because they are worse than petrol on that as well .

but its a sad fact that most people buy into these scams .

it seems also that some drivers remove the dpf filter , and others leave the several gallon urea tank empty .

diesel would be a complete joke if it were not so deadly serious.

[fat controller]

As far as I know, any vehicle using urea (or AdBlue to give it its fancy name) won't run for long with the tank empty, and even then will be severely de-rated. This is certainly the case with our fleet at work; and in absolute fairness, the urea combined with particulate filters really does work. I am long enough in the tooth to remember our shed being thick with diesel smoke on cold winters mornings, and I mean thick - like fog. Nowadays, we very rarely see any fumes coming from the vehicles, and when we do it is an indicator that something is wrong.

Also bear in mind that Euro 6 vehicles are not being called into question, or at least so far they aren't - the vehicles in question are Euro 4 and Euro 5, and that for VAG points to their first common rail diesels. In many respects, they backed the wrong horse with their engine designs - the PD engines gave incredible performance in terms of outright grunt and speed whilst returning fairly acceptable fuel economy, however as soon as things had to start cleaning up, the PD engines were out of the game immediately - - if I remember correctly, the PD engines struggled to hit Euro 3 let alone anything higher.

By the time it got to Euro 4 and Euro 5, VAG were playing catch up; other marques, particularly French ones for some reason, had been developing their tech over a much longer period, and therefore were better at it. Sadly, not only were VAG playing catch up, but they were also hell bent on world dominance at all costs....... the end result was that quality really started to slip (Skoda are often referred to as being VW's built by someone who actually gives a monkeys purely because they seem to be the most reliable), and corners had to be cut to get to where they wanted to be.

There were three things worrying me when we went to test drive the QQ:

- Is it going to be a gutless wonder with such a small engine
- Is the build quality going to be naff compared to the Audi
- It is built in collaboration with Renault, and I have NEVER had a good experience with a French car


However, I quickly discovered that it wasn't gutless, the quality is at least as good as VW, if not just as good as Audi, with plenty of tech that seems to work (mostly) and a bit of research seems to suggest that the French car manufacturers took a proper pasting for their reliability and have actually taken the kick in the pants and gone and done something about it.

I loved my Audi, and wanted another one, but the QQ won me over with its looks, comfort (better than the Audi), ride and handling (better than the Audi), and the standard kit list; better still, it has wiped the floor with the A4 in terms of fuel economy, as well as being much cheaper to service (three year service plan for less than £20 a month with a main dealer! I was paying nearly that for road tax on the Audi!), and being Euro 6 (I believe) it is reasonably clean. Yes, the problems surrounding diesel are a worry, and no doubt all diesels will have to have AdBlue systems in future to kill the NOx emissions, but in the grand scheme of things, I currently feel as though I have dodged a bit of a bullet.

[Dan1701]

To be honest, I see something here which I haven't heard anyone else commenting on. VW rigged the tests by putting code into the ECU to spot the test environment, and re-tune the car to ultra-clean whenever said test regime was spotted.

In other words, the testing regime is so very different from normal driving behaviour that an ECU which can only really look at accelerator, brake, and gearing inputs, can rapidly spot when a test is in progress. To rephrase, the test regime is so wholly and utterly unrepresentative of normal driving that any results from the test cannot be relied upon even if the cheating code is not in place.

Making a diesel run clean isn't difficult. You need a good particle trap system, and a way to get rid of nitrogen oxides. The former need only really be a particle trap, although if one wanted to improve things a bit, an electrical heating system to improve the soot burn-off rate would be a good idea. To get rid of nitrous oxides, all you need is Adblue and a suitable catalytic converter (which can also be using soot to react away nitrous oxides as well).

All the manufacturers are quibbling about is how big the Adblue tank must be, and how often it needs to be refilled. Currently the tank is hidden and hard to get to, and lasts from service interval to service interval. If you need more Adblue, then a more-easily accessed tank that is easier to fill is needed, together with conveniently-sized Adblue bottles.

[Deleted User 1571]

Peugeot/Citroen have already gone with Adblue for their small family cars with diesel engines. I am at a loss to understand why others have not gone the same way for Euro 6 standard engines, which is what new cars should meet from now on. Some are using increased levels of cooled EGR with bigger soot filters and something called NOx storage catalysts. Surely the stored NOx has to be released or neutralised at some point.

The efficiency advantage of Adblue cannot be overemphasised. The Peugeot 307 increased its official combined consumption from approximately 70mpg with Euro5 engines [EGR biassed] to 90mpg with the latest Euro 6 SCR/Adblue engines. That's a massive increase in efficiency and even with a slight extra cost of Adblue the owner is very much better off and so is the environment.

It is a pity that Renault/Nissan have not used the same system.

Adblue is now commonly available and very cheap. Main dealers, as usual, might try and gouge the customer, but it can be bought in 20litre drums at less than half the price and in 200 litre and 1000litre IBC's as well. Obviously for a car, a 20 litre drum for about £1 a litre is the sensible choice and that will last over 10,000 miles for most cars. A saving of 20mpg on a Qashqai size car will save £320 approximately in fuel over 10,000 miles for an Adblue outlay of £20 to £40 [if bought 'right']