e Handbrake failed - Nissan denys fault

Forum for wheels, tyres, suspension, chassis, brakes
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Goanshi
Posts: 10
Joined: Wed Jan 07, 2015 1:06 am

Post by Goanshi »

OK. Need some advice. Would really appreciate any guidance as to next steps.Have
the 2014 Qashqai Acenta Premium 1.5dci, delivered Feb/2014 so its on a
63 plate, but is the new generation. Its got about 15k on the clock. Its
on a lease from Arval leasing.In all the time that I have used
the car, the handbrake applied automatically when you switched the car
off. The handbrake would then dis-engage when you start car+engage
gear+release clutch. Never had a problem. Thought it was a great system.In
Nov, I left the car in the car park as normal. Nothing irregular about
the car park, no steep incline or anything, just a normal Saturday
morning Kingston town center morning. Upon my return several hours
later, I found the car had rolled out of its space across an access way
and into another car.The police had been called and the other
owner was waiting for me pretty angry. The Qashqai handbrake had failed
at some point. Either it had not engaged or it had released some point
in the day. There was no real incline, but if you looked hard enough to
could see an incline that was for the drainage. But was seriously mild.
Unfortunately as the car park spaces around the Qashqai were empty, I
guess it had been able to roll anyway.Went to Nissan wanting to
get the brake fixed and get the crash damage fixed. Nissan took the car
in and, having upgraded the software, said they couldn't find a fault.
They first claimed that I must have left it dis-engaged. But actually
that is really impossible to do accidentally. So all they could imply is
that I must have done it on purpose, but anyway, they didn't accept the
handbrake failed. Fact is it did fail, this really make me angry that
they don't accept that it can.I then went to my leasing company,
Arval, and asked them to pursue a warranty claim for the damage to the
car. They approached Nissan and Nissan then changed the story and told
them that I should have left the car in gear when I parked and because I
had not done so, they didn't feel responsible. So now the leasing
company has washed there hands of this and want me to get the car
repaired.What recourse do I have? Appreciate any advice. Fact is, the electric handbrake failed
on the car. It may well have failed previously, but may not have had
the opportunity to roll. Nissan are basically blaming me to get out of
repairing the damage. The damage isn't serious enough to go full legal,
but the way they have treated this case should be warning to others
thinking of this car. Especially if you have the electric handbrake.For
the record, I think the car is great otherwise. Great looks and drive
for what it is. The entertainment system has an 80's style interface
which in 2014 does let the car down.

teknaken
Posts: 134
Joined: Thu Feb 20, 2014 2:32 pm

Post by teknaken »

I did read a post elsewhere about the automatic application of the e-handbrake. I drive a 1.6dci and I have always had to manually apply the brake. Mine is an auto. I don't know if the system is different for Manual. On the other hand perhaps mine has been faulty from new.
2019 1.3 Tekna Dig-T 160 (Automatic)
2014 1.6 dCi Tekna CVT Bronze Metallic - delivered 9/7/14
rm0rgan
Posts: 287
Joined: Mon Oct 06, 2014 4:33 pm

Post by rm0rgan »

This is a difficult one that I'd probably put to one of those 'no win, no fee' solicitor types.To test the handbrake the exact conditions would need to have been replicated and I suspect Nissan would simply have tested the handbrake on cold discs and cold pads - the pressure applied by the electronic brake would have been fine to pass their test. The problem is, on the day you parked your car you may have used the brakes a lot or driven at high speed on the way to the car park and both the pads and discs may have expanded (which is normal). You switched off the car and the auto brake applied (or even if you had applied it manually via the button) the handbrake all seemed good, however, over the next few hours the pads and discs probably shrank as they cooled and the handbrake pressure reduced also - the result is your car rolls away. There have been a number of cases like this and a quick search on google will throw some stories up. I tend to leave mine in reverse when parking on a hill as I had a similar incident when I owned another car but luckily no other car was involved.Chalk it up to experience unless the 'free solicitor' can do anything and feel good for sharing with other folk on here who may not have known about the inherent problems with Electronic Handbrakes and Nissan Crappy Customer Care!
Goanshi
Posts: 10
Joined: Wed Jan 07, 2015 1:06 am

Post by Goanshi »

The car has always had fully automatic braking. The guy who delivered the car strongly advised me never to mess with it. It can't easily be disengaged either. It does take a multi step operation to take it off auto.Anyway was happy with it.The point about the heat in the pads. I did think of that, but I also figured that it seemed such an obvious and common state, that the they must have a constant tensioning on the system if it feels slippage. Pads are always changing over a drive cycle, how could they call a system automatic if the tension is always fixed? This may well be part of the failure that happened.It would be a true stretch to call the place I parked in on an incline. I think the whole, leaving the car in gear was just a cover butt cop out. Who actually does that on practically flat surfaces, 100% of the time.This was my first Nissan from new. Really feel let down, when they have tried to keep pinning it on me instead of accepting the brake failed and dealing with the body damage.
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jonceebee
Posts: 1171
Joined: Sat Jan 25, 2014 5:25 pm

Post by jonceebee »

One of the QQ owners of my former company parked the car on a slight incline, did not switch of the ignition and walked away. When she returned it had rolled 20 yards, luckily not hitting other vehicles. The engine had switched off as she had walked far enough away into the shops for the e-key to de-activate. It was thought the car had a failed handbrake until it was found that the brake had not been activated. Since I heard of this I always ensure the light is on the e-brake switch before I jump out of the car.Are you sure something similar did not happen in your case, it can be so easily done.?
QQ 2014 1.2 Tekna Storm White. Chromed front lip finisher,Side Sills,Glass Finisher, Lower Trunk Finisher, White Side mouldings, White AlloyGaytors, Wind Deflectors
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AlleyCat
Posts: 571
Joined: Thu Feb 20, 2014 8:56 pm

Post by AlleyCat »

[quote="Goanshi"]It would be a true stretch to call the place I parked in on an incline. I think the whole, leaving the car in gear was just a cover butt cop out. Who actually does that on practically flat surfaces, 100% of the time.[/QUOTE]Me.I'm just about old enough to remember cars rolling away with the good old fashioned handbrake applied.On a Hill, In gear and wheels turned slightly to the Kerb.I don't know what, and for how long, a car holds state of what has happened to it but i'd assume it possibly logs features getting turned on and off somewhere?Especially anything to do with safety equipment.One example of why i'd assume they'd cover this:-Front passenger air bag turned off "but it didn't deploy" your honour arguments.It would be but the work of a moment to "set it back to how it was" and who's to know?I can't believe they won't cover their backside from a liability perspective like this.Possibly disengaging the auto-hanbrake feature would be loggedin the same manor?As a slightly screwy idea to what happened.Did the car not turn off properly?I'm thinking, what happens if it's sat in that "power on" engine not running state.Does the auto-handbrake engage?I know i can release the hanbrake in just "electric power only" mode as i sometimes have to roll the car back down the drive a bit to get the ladders up the front of the house. I can't be bothered / see the point of turning the engine on to do that.Hope that makes sense.
Nissan no more...
Deleted User 759

Post by Deleted User 759 »

Interesting scenario and it has crossed my mind in a "what if", however I thought that the electronic handbrake offered enough force to get over the shrinking disc commonly seen on manual handbrake where the driver has only done just enough to keep the car stationary at that moment in time. IE on a steep hill, sometimes you can apply a manual handbrake enough on flat to prevent movement but on a steep hill, it needs more, where the electronic handbrake its not an issue. From the point of view of the leasing company, they are indeed correct that it is common practice and highly recommended that regardless of the type of handbrake system, a manual car should always be left in gear as a backup to the handbrake system. On a manual handbrake, sometimes the driver does. On an auto box, leaving it in park will 'lock up' the gearbox to create a similar backup in case of handbrake failure. However, when you say "handbrake failed", its a very open ended comment and more information is needed... 1. Did the handbrake fail to auto apply when you turned the engine off2. Did the handbrake auto apply, but then disengage fully during the parking3. Did the handbrake auto apply as normal, but brake disc/pad cooling offered enough slack to allow the car to roll forward4. I have yet to look at the mechanism for the handbrake system, however manual brake systems were easily overridden with access to the underneath and the cable. Could there have been tampering by a 3rd party? Without knowing the answer, its difficult to "apply blame", and I dare say this is the reason why Nissan are saying "not our problem". If they did admit, then this could have quite a significant impact on them as a company However, as you say, its difficult to get the handbrake wrong! * It should auto engage when switching off engine* It should auto disengage when you start to accelerate off* It should NOT auto disengage when pulling up the clutch only with engine on and in gear* It should allow the user to engage the brake with engine on and not moving* It should NOT allow the user to disengage the handbrake unless the footbrake is applied with engine running There are probably more, but just of the top of my head! I have seen comments that the RAC are suggesting not to leave auto headlights in the auto position when parked as they are suggesting that the headlights have been seen coming on by themselves. I am not sure if this is a general comment, or specific to the QQ. We (as some users on this forum) were quick to jump over the emergency collision avoidance system when somebody posted that it operated for no apparent reason, only for then months later for a recall and video's starting to appear of the problem happening so anything is possible! Is there any CCTV footage of the incident at all? Would be interesting to view it to see if it happened shortly after you left, or after a number of hours, or even if there was anybody tampering with it?
Goanshi
Posts: 10
Joined: Wed Jan 07, 2015 1:06 am

Post by Goanshi »

100% the car was turned off. The car also won't lock if the engine is still in the ON position. The car was locked. I also religiously check for the lights to flash to show that the alarm was on and I did do in this case too.Also the brakes engage as soon as you turn the engine off. The brakes dont come off if you return to stand by or start position. They only come off when you move.I am absolutely sure that:1) The car was off2) the car was locked3) the lights flashed correctly to show alarm had engaged.Thanks.
Goanshi
Posts: 10
Joined: Wed Jan 07, 2015 1:06 am

Post by Goanshi »

Thanks for your questions..Here are the answers:1. Did the handbrake fail to auto apply when you turned the engine off>> Don't know. After so much usage, I never look at it anymore. There is a noise that comes when it engaged. On this occassion, I could not be sure if the noise happened or not since I may confuse it with another occasion.2. Did the handbrake auto apply, but then disengage fully during the parking>> It was fully disengaged when it was found. The car was locked, all lights were off.3. Did the handbrake auto apply as normal, but brake disc/pad cooling offered enough slack to allow the car to roll forward>> Don't know. Sounds plausible though and common enough that an automatic hand brake system should be able to adjust to it. Failure to do so would be a deep functional short coming.4.
I have yet to look at the mechanism for the handbrake system, however
manual brake systems were easily overridden with access to the
underneath and the cable. Could there have been tampering by a 3rd
party?>> Very unlikely. This is busy council city center car park with CCTV. Also really, I'm not that important.http://www.kingston.gov.uk/directory_re ... _basementI was refused CCTV access for legal reasons. You need some legal authority to get it. I do have a police report though as they were called to the scene by the other driver. Also security etc.
AlleyCat
Posts: 571
Joined: Thu Feb 20, 2014 8:56 pm

Post by AlleyCat »

I'm fairly certain a FOI request for CCTV information should be responded to.There is a small fee involved but it should be dealt with.Legal reasons doesn't mean anything as it's a general term and there should be a complaints process in place.They'd need to be more specific as a FOI request has to be complied with under most scenarios but it does have to be in writing to the correct people / area.http://www.kingston.gov.uk/info/200278/ ... oi_request
AlleyCat2015-01-07 12:19:33
Nissan no more...
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